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Metalbourne
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:10 pm

Sorry for us starting late, but i thought we didn't use the AB mod until 43? One thing i don't like is that we should've won due to us still having a KV1 left against the German Sniper left. As soon as we left spawn he capped and won. In real life I think we should've won due to having a tank left over, but the caps should not count for realism matches at all.

Also, I noticed 1 German got disconected and reconnected and played.

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{1.SS}Gottenberg
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:20 pm

Germans won today's battle

German losses:

4 PanzerIII's(8 panzercrewmen)
4 Infantrymen

Russian losses:

1 KV1 (2 tankers)
3 T-34's (5 tankers)
2 Infantrymen
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Günter Severloh
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:22 pm

personally i think the caps are stupid, int eh past we never used caps in realism matches, why do it now, when i was playin with 17SS while back every match i went to with them they never had caps in their maps, it was a fight to the death, o the enmy surrendered, i think thats more realistic then caps.

axis still won based on the cap rules but i think we should lose the caps. their not hard to take out.

I think we should have a meeting either on steam or vent about this, id like to talk with hoffmann about this too,a nd the othr caommanders.

I would find the battle more scarier and intense if teh caps werent there, cuz u dont know where the enemy is, u dont have caps to rely on to a degree, anyways u all know what im sayin
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Friedrich Werner
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:09 pm

check out the poll section... this topic and 3 others are now looking for your votes to make turn 4 better!

however as much as I agree with metal and gunter, this victory has to remain axis as we had no rule in place yet to clarify this situation.

Can i get accurate casualty descriptions please b/c the axis had more then 5 infantry and it says only 4 died while you mention that only the sniper remained... thus some extra guys were either around or dead. So let me know and sorry allies, i know this is rough but in the future this should improve if you make the votes work for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:55 pm

German losses:

We had 8 panzercrewmen and 5 infantry show up. 13 men. this is for certain.

4 PanzerIII's(8 panzercrewmen) Lost
4 Infantrymen Lost

12 Lost

Russian losses:

Ruskies had 10 tankers and 2 infantry show up. 12 men for sure. this is certain...

1 KV1 (2 crewmen) Lost
3 T-34's (6 crewmen) Lost
2 Infantrymen Lost

10 Lost

Survivors:

2 tankers (russian) a T60 or a KV1 according to what the russians had to use from their list of equipment. im not sure. SHD?
1 sniper/infantry (german)

3 Live

Something doesnt add up. According to my screenshots.. we killed over 20 ruskies when there was only 12. Glitch in the game maybe? I duno but the points on my screenshots dont add up right.

There was a report from 1.SS that they busted a tank with only one crewman operating it. this is because Jaeger, our sniper, had shot the commander of that tank when he peeked out of his hatch. That is why officer Gottenberg had posted 5 tankers lost instead of 6.

For the future: I suggest both sides report their OWN losses. As we always seem to have our losses correct. Ruskies got to keep track of what they USE and what they LOSE during a battle. Or at least correct us when we make errors such as these...

Nice battle though SHD. It was a slaughter. I thought we were done for.

P.S- I also think there should be a pole for, if not referee, one member from each side who is NOT a squad leader or commander (so there is no use of binoculars) to stay in the server, in spawn, after they die and observe and take screenshots of the scores. Scores seem to tell alot about what has gone on during the match, but most importantly clans MUST get feedback from their members who participated in the battle.

That is all.

Cpl.B.Boon.
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Günter Severloh
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:39 pm

Be best if both sides report as that is what ur supposed to do anyways.
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Metalbourne
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:42 am

razyl_daz wrote:
German losses:

We had 8 panzercrewmen and 5 infantry show up. 13 men. this is for certain.

4 PanzerIII's(8 panzercrewmen) Lost
4 Infantrymen Lost

12 Lost

Russian losses:

Ruskies had 10 tankers and 2 infantry show up. 12 men for sure. this is certain...

1 KV1 (2 crewmen) Lost
3 T-34's (6 crewmen) Lost
2 Infantrymen Lost

10 Lost

Survivors:

2 tankers (russian) a T60 or a KV1 according to what the russians had to use from their list of equipment. im not sure. SHD?
1 sniper/infantry (german)

3 Live

Something doesnt add up. According to my screenshots.. we killed over 20 ruskies when there was only 12. Glitch in the game maybe? I duno but the points on my screenshots dont add up right.

There was a report from 1.SS that they busted a tank with only one crewman operating it. this is because Jaeger, our sniper, had shot the commander of that tank when he peeked out of his hatch. That is why officer Gottenberg had posted 5 tankers lost instead of 6.

For the future: I suggest both sides report their OWN losses. As we always seem to have our losses correct. Ruskies got to keep track of what they USE and what they LOSE during a battle. Or at least correct us when we make errors such as these...

Nice battle though SHD. It was a slaughter. I thought we were done for.

P.S- I also think there should be a pole for, if not referee, one member from each side who is NOT a squad leader or commander (so there is no use of binoculars) to stay in the server, in spawn, after they die and observe and take screenshots of the scores. Scores seem to tell alot about what has gone on during the match, but most importantly clans MUST get feedback from their members who participated in the battle.

That is all.

Cpl.B.Boon.

This is correct, I don't know why there was a discrepency on the points though, it must be a glitch. Because we had no one rejoined after they were killed, as we still had a T60 left in spawn. Yes, one of our tank commanders (Cpt. Blimp) was killed and the driver kept going according to the rules, and a driver was killed in another tank due to arty, so they met up with each other and double crewed the last KV1 and the T60 stayed in spawn. We did notice a 187th member disconnected and rejoined and fought at the very end. I thought disconnections were suppose to stay disconnected? It was the bloodiest battle yet though for the Axis. The casualty list above is correct, but maybe that guy rejoining screwed up the casualty list and points, I don't know.

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Friedrich Werner
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:20 am

do you think black sreen at death could have preveneted this? or perhaps a respawn time of 1 hour?

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:05 am

I will change the respawn time because I don't know how to get the black screen activated.

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{1.SS}Salz



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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:10 pm

razyl_daz wrote:


There was a report from 1.SS that they busted a tank with only one crewman operating it. this is because Jaeger, our sniper, had shot the commander of that tank when he peeked out of his hatch. That is why officer Gottenberg had posted 5 tankers lost instead of 6.

Thank you for the clarification on the one man tank, for some reason we thought we had seen an odd number of tankers around the entire match. I am not trying to start anything but if someone could post a screen shot of the score board that would be appreciated.


Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:47 pm

Np Salz. Il see if i can post the couple screenshots i have in my next post.

"but maybe that guy rejoining screwed up the casualty list and points, I don't know." - Metalbourne

Jaeger our sniper was disconnected around midway through the match. He was not killed and i saw no rules stating that once a player is disconnected, due to bad connection, he/she cannot rejoin.

As far as the points go: Jaeger would have had LESS points, if scored any before the connection problem, than he started out with. That does not explain all the extra points we got for kills. The only thing I can think of is that it is a GLITCH or there is another way to score extra points besides killing and capping...

I will post the screenshots i have to show you guys what im talking about...
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:05 pm



This one only really clarifys the classes each side chose. this was at the beginning of the match after we lost our first tank. one guy has yet to leave the server.

This second one shows the scores near the end of the battle:

In detail: Tuft has 21 points- 20 for 2 caps and 1 kill.
Salz/Ostheim together made 18 points- thats 1 cap and 8 kills.
Cpl. Fell has 15 points- 10 for a cap, 5 kills.
Jaeger has sniped 3 soldiers.

Now i count 17 kills there. but i was not exaggerating when i said 20. 3 of our guys are not in this screenshot, one of which is Officer Gottenberg who i know for a fact killed at least 3 guys in one artillery barrage. Thats 20 Ruskies unless im missing something. Ive only been playing RO for about a year and a half, maybe i dont know all the rules regarding points in the game but im pretty sure you get 1 point per kill and 10 for a cap right? Sorry if i pulled a noob move on this one but from what ive experienced in my time playing RO, that is how the points work.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:22 pm

Not my business, but I experienced in the past that sometimes killing commander classes get
you more points . Not sure if thats what happened here, but consider the possibility,
it may add up.
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Pavel Volodnikov
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:29 pm

Yes, that is so. Killing a Tank Commander or Squad Leader is worth 3 points.
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Werner Jungmann

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:16 pm

I thought this being realism, we didn't use points....
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:40 pm

And it has been a rule if you disconnect you cannot reconnect in the same game. I've had several guys disconnect throughout the matches and told them they couldn't rejoin. SInce it was the sniper that disconnected and reconnected, being he was the only one left alive on the German side, how does that equate to a German victory? I thought it was his position goes back into the German Equipment pool if they disconnect? I think we need clarification on this rule too. I was told countless times by the German units that that was the rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:20 pm

Ok thank you. I did not know that about the squad leader/commander roles regarding points. It does add up right, thank you Ritter. Sorry for the accusations SHD but i wasnt sure on it. I thought maybe it was a glitch.

And yes it is realism and the points do not matter but they are good to have to record stuff like this.

SHD did not have any guys disconnect from the matches we have played against them.

As far as the match goes alltogether. Neither of our leaders from 1.SS or 187th had been told about the bad connection rule. It is also missing from the list of rules. So from TOC's current stand point in rules and regulations, yes it WAS a german victory. According to the polls and any additions to the list of Rules on the site, this would be a Russian victory no doubt.

Now that everything is cleared up, we can safely say that this was a fair battle. We obviously learned our lessons from the battle at arad.

Maybe the tide HAS turned in favor of the russians (so long as they have numbers for the next battles to come. plz do).

Cpl.Boon
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:18 pm

yea realism battles have sno scores visibile and you arn't able to see the enemy's class selections.

If we make the respawn time an hour+ then we shouldn't have this problem anymore of reinforcements arriving again (if this has happened) meanwhile either get black screen or get people disconnect after the match.

But yea, Russians could turn the tide in south with the amount of equipment and artillery almost exhausted by Sud.

I also need these details calrified:
SdKfz 251 casualties
Artillery Barrages aused by both sides

Thanks,
Werner

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:50 pm

I think both halftracks were lost and we used only 1 Arty barrage on the hill. I'm not sure how many the germans used but i know it was at least 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:06 pm

Actually I remember for a fact on one of the very first matches (Bondarevo) one of our men disconnected in the match. He came back on Vent and asked if he could rejoin and we told him no, once you leave you're out for good. Normally I wouldn't care if the axis did that, but now you say he was the sniper that miraculously won the battle for the axis? I don't think thats very fair. What if he was spotted by a tank and was about to get shot and decided to "lose conenction" to the game, then came back to rejoin? I doubt he would have done that but can we be totally sure? Nope.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:03 pm

Sorry Kimball, i said in the matches we have played against you, there were no disconnection problems on your side.

we only had 1 arty barrage so yes we used that. so 1 barrage from each side.

as far as the halftracks go, we used two but i dont know whether or not they were blown up, as we were not in them. we did however leave them in poorly chosen positions.

Both sides need to take better notes while the match is in play. None of this "i think" and/or " im almost certain" crap. its either you know, or you dont. Again i will say that you HAVE to talk to your guys after the battle to find out everything. 1 man cannot record it all. You need to rely on everyone's feedback. Metalbourne i suggest you talk to your guys before saying you busted both our halftracks.

im sorry but through most of my experience and im sure alot of others who have played in leagues outside of realism, if you get disconnected, you are aloud to jump back in. thats how it has always been. since there was no rule for this on the site, and since werner or any other TOC admin did not discuss the rule with any of our leaders, i dont think it is FAIR to say we did wrong.

And yea if you guys want to start getting all technical about realism... soldiers dont just vanish out of thin air and then are NOWHERE to be found. Jaeger was our sniper. SHD had no clue where he was the whole match. So what do we keep going on about??
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:22 pm

razyl_daz wrote:

im sorry but through most of my experience and im sure alot of others who have played in leagues outside of realism, if you get disconnected, you are aloud to jump back in. thats how it has always been. since there was no rule for this on the site, and since werner or any other TOC admin did not discuss the rule with any of our leaders, i dont think it is FAIR to say we did wrong.

What?!? Oh jeez please someone tell me I have mentioned this as a rule. With all due respect I've never heard of such a thing, leaving and then coming back.

But hey it's good you mentione that I didn't say this was a rule, if that is the truth of the matter. Next round (Turn 4) we are going to have a lot of new rules which should enhance the realism and cut down on these silly newb mistakes.

over and out,
Werner

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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:40 pm

yes someone said you did mention it. but not to 1.SS or 187th.

With all due respect, i dont beleive that everyone here just started playing realism and never played competitively before. In any competitive style matches, you are aloud to rejoin. 1 reason is because the teams would then be un-even. Another reason is simply asking yourself "where is the fun in that? im playing a game and all of a sudden i get disconnected and i cant rejoin to help my fellow gamers??". That is absolutely non-sense. I think i speak for alot of current members in TOC that if i was unaware of this rule, i would have reconnected myself. Its almost instinct because you are missing out on the action. That is why Jaeger did it, and that is why almost everyone else would.

However, for TOC and realism i think the rule should apply. A fair point was made that if someone is playing and are about to get run over by a tank or something, they could simply reconnect and still be alive... that is also non-sense. I would say there should be an honor rule on that, it would be just plain rude to actually do that in a match, but there is no way to tell if it was meaningful or not.

This sort of thing can easily be clarified in the "Rules of TOC" section, like alot of other rules that should be mentioned there... unless you want to personally tell every new member of TOC what all these rules are yourself, i think it would be best you edit, finalize, and perfect the list of rules.

I wouldnt go calling them "newb" (hate that word) mistakes. The fact that alot of us are totally unaware of alot of rules in TOC because they are not posted in the rules section, tells me more so that TOC is the one making the mistakes, nobody else.

You come out with a brilliant idea such as TOC but dont have the resources to back everything up and perfect it to avoid these arguements. Same goes for any good idea out there. Its nice that we are fixing the odd mistakes as we go along, but there are too many. Alot of which should have been stated/added since the beginning.

For example: you dont even have a rule in the rules section that states: if you die during a battle you MUST disconnect.

Simple and almost common sense though right? WRONG! not to people who are new to realism. And seeing as realism is a small community out there in most games, this sort of thing should be on an official set of rules for those who strike an interest for realism.


Last edited by razyl_daz on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:10 pm

Agreed on that.
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PostSubject: Re: Battle of Central Ukraine (September41)   Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:17 pm

check the rules forum... changes have finally been made.

If you have any suggestions for rules, post a topic in the 'T.O.C. Rule Discussions'.

Thanks for your patience,
T.O.C. Management


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