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TChristie

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PostSubject: Squad leader spam   Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:17 pm

I was looking at the new ogledow last night and couldnt help notice the total of 8 squad leaders for the germans. Now not me being picky but 8 squadleaders...... WHAT.

Thats massive cap power, and for a realism campaign its absoloutely retarded. now i know you german units might argue, each zug had a leader or what not. But doesnt matter, we arnt asking for 8 squad leaders. Rules should be put in place for limitations on this, Because the germans dont even have to kill us to cap.

If no action is taken against this i must ask for us to have at least 15 squadleaders please. Just to be safe.
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Matvei Staroi

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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:16 pm

3 tanks with 8 tankers. In a 40 person battle, that leaves 12 infantry with 4 squad leaders? That's a squad leader per 3 soldiers. That just boggles my mind.
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Ernst Hoffmann
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:32 pm

There should be 3 Panzerführer (one for each tank) and four squadleaders one for myself as Zugführer, 1 for the gruppenführer, 1 for the Spähtrupp führer and one more for the Truppenführer. This is not an unrealistic ammount of sqaudleader slots. The truppenführer is a second in command of a gruppe and would often have bino's. Let me also remind you that there are no Stoßtrupp slots we will only have in the infanterie 2 MP40's all our men are armed with K98k's as we follow realistic weapon assignments.

Regards
Ernst Hoffmann

P.S. 3 tanks with 6 tankers

P.S.S. Also can I add that we don't have these SL's for capping power as battles in realism matches and campaigns are rarely won by capping we will try and get the cap variables changed asap!
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Matvei Staroi

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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:02 pm

Ernst Hoffmann wrote:
There should be 3 Panzerführer (one for each tank) and four squadleaders one for myself as Zugführer, 1 for the gruppenführer, 1 for the Spähtrupp führer and one more for the Truppenführer. This is not an unrealistic ammount of sqaudleader slots. The truppenführer is a second in command of a gruppe and would often have bino's. Let me also remind you that there are no Stoßtrupp slots we will only have in the infanterie 2 MP40's all our men are armed with K98k's as we follow realistic weapon assignments.

P.S.S. Also can I add that we don't have these SL's for capping power as battles in realism matches and campaigns are rarely won by capping we will try and get the cap variables changed asap!
We talked about this on Ventrilo a bit. I have no problem with the realism reason for having these squad leaders, but it has to be remembered that we're in a game that is based on capturable objectives. In the future, it may be best to think of a way to remove capture points so that we can be free to "re-enact" to our full extent.

As for the "P.S.S." it wasn't really a problem before because we were always outnumbered. Now that we may field a full 20, it is a larger problem if the battle just ends from overwhelming capture power.

Ernst Hoffmann wrote:
P.S. 3 tanks with 6 tankers
Last time I checked the custom map, it was 5 tank crew and 3 tank commanders.
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Ernst Hoffmann
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:09 am

The tank crew slots were most probably left at stock we will not be using all of them

Axis Equipment: (Final)
- 1 Panzer IVF1
- 2 Panzer III's
- 2 Sdkfz 251's
- 5 (Max) Artillery Barrages

Axis Personnel:
- 3 Panzerführer
- 3 Panzersoldaten
- 4 Gruppenführer (Mp40, G41, or k98)
- 2 MG34
-1 Anti-tank soldier (PTRD)
- 1 Scharfzchutze (k98 w/ scope)
- 2 Pionieer (k98 and Satchels & grenades)
- 6 Schutze (k98)
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TChristie

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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:39 am

Unless the cap situation is sorted out and implemented in the map before the match, i think squad leaders should be limited. As although you might say you dont win by capping, what if you did? that would lead to all sorts of arguements.

As for 1 per tank, Thats not the point of the role in RO. the Panzerfuhrer role is to command a section of tanks. Not one per tank.

Also problems with the map, the anti tank soldier has 3 fausts, (if these are used the team responsible should be subject to immediate forfeit)
and the at class is unlimited, same again if more than stated are used, team should be subject to forfeit.
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Ritter

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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:05 am

Rolling Eyes

Alexsey Kuleshov wrote:

Also problems with the map, the anti tank soldier has 3 fausts, (if these are used the team responsible should be subject to immediate forfeit)
and the at class is unlimited, same again if more than stated are used, team should be subject to forfeit.

Its 1941. Panzerfausts? what are you talking about?


Alexsey Kuleshov wrote:
Unless the cap situation is sorted out and implemented in the map before the match, i think squad leaders should be limited.
As although you might say you dont win by capping, what if you did? that would lead to all sorts of arguements.

As for 1 per tank, Thats not the point of the role in RO. the Panzerfuhrer role is to command a section of tanks. Not one per tank.

No worries for the Panzers, we'll take the spare normal crewmembers then to fill our Panzers up, I cant speak for the infantry however.
But I'm sure if we would winn by capping, it would be because Ivan is already shot to pieces. Rolling Eyes
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Friedrich Werner
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:55 pm

For now we are going to leave the sql positions as they are (max at 4).

However in the near future a Spotter/ Team Leader Class would be best to to create in my opinion...

I.E. Weapon loadout German
Type: Infantry
Class: Truppführer
Main Weapon: G41, K98
Secondary Weapon: None
Grenade Type: 2 Stielhandgranaten
Other: Binoculars
Purpose: Used often I.O.T. to assist in Leading, or be an addition to, either a Unit/ Leader's Reconnaisance Team, a Machinegun Team, Fire Support Team, or for any other special team that could be aided by the use of binoculars.

As far as Tank commanders go, My belief is that a side can have as many tank commanders as they have tanks. So 3 tanks = 3 tank commanders. Germans for 1 I know arn't using this class for smgs or for arty capability (although this is available to us in bad situations) Instead, this class is used for reconnoitering in front of the tank when an infantry presence is not nearby. Historically on all sides, the Binoculars are something all tank commanders used and most tanks carried several pairs of.


No panzerfausts until 1943 and even then only 1-2 available to be carried at once. Satchels, available now, can be carried by either side, but only 2 at a time. So modders if your sapper class has 3 satchels, make it 2 from now on instead.

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Ivan Kovas

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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:27 pm

I agree with limiting the tank commander role. It is clear your not choosing it for the simple MP40, something that shouldn't even be debated. It makes sense to have only 1 for other reasons. Theoretically yes every tank has a tank "commander" but there is only 1 COMMANDER directing his tanks essentially acting as the command tank. This 1 commander is essentially the one who has the most tactical wit or what not hense why he is in rank he is. For every tank to have a tank commander class would be suggesting that each tank is a command tank. Tank commander class should be proportionate to the amount of tanks, something that shouldn't be worried about until armored divisions go head to head.
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|GD|Kessler
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:43 pm

Ivans post makes sense, same should really go with infantry, 1 gruppenfuhrer for each 8 infantry is realistic. Truppenfuhrer is really irrelevant since the MG has their own binocs in game as does a sniper.
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Metalbourne
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:09 am

I say, we should remove the cap-zones all together, therefore they can use tank commanders with no issues. We lost again (last match) because of loosing cap-zones and not because of Superior numbers or equipment. It came down to a Sniper verse our KV1. He hid until we left spawn, then he capped it. I think in real life the KV1 would've won since the sniper wouldn't be able to kill the tank. I don't even know what type of story to write for the T.O.C. chronicles on that one, lol. "Man with rifle scares off tank after killing 3 German tanks and 1 infantry!". This type of thing will only happen more and this is a realism campaign not the RO League or skrimish.

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Matvei Staroi

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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 am

Myself and Volodnikov talked about this a bit yesterday.

We came to the conclusion that in the future, capture zones should be removed. The objective of the battles should be to secure areas AND ward off counter-attacks, ambushes, etc.

Unless one side retreates to save their manpower or roles (like not wanting to lose a sniper or a tank), the battle shouldn't end until the area is truly secured, as in the enemy either leaves the area after determining it's too risky to take it (or take it back) with the forces they have left or all die in an attempt.

If this change is made, we should also make a rule where the AG on both sides stay in-server until the battle is over to coordinate things, declare a withdrawal, etc.
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Friedrich Werner
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:02 am

|GD|Kessler wrote:
Truppenfuhrer is really irrelevant since the MG has their own binocs in game as does a sniper.

MG can't use his binoculars effectively if he has to undeploy his weapon I.O.T. to whip out his binocs. A Truppenfuhrer class like i suggested could spot his rounds. This spotter/ TL class would also help the ruskies who seem to have lost the majority of their snipers already. A rifleman and Spotter Class is realistic as well as effective.


I disagree with the tank commander position, but i will put this to a poll.

PLEASE CHECK THE POLL SECTION OF THE TOC FORUMS TO VOTE FOR THE FOLLOWING:
1) Tank commanders - Tanks
2) Spotter/ Truppenfuhrer Class, or No Such Class, or <4 Squad Leader Positions, or 1 Squad Leader per every 6-8 soldiers
3) Cap Zones or No Cap Zones

Check them out and have you and your troops place their votes.

vr,
Werner

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Metalbourne
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PostSubject: Re: Squad leader spam   Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:18 am

I guess we have to decide (although I thought it was already decided) that to win a map, the winning side must have superior numbers or equipment, not about taking the caps. I really must protest the Axis victory on Sunday because they had fewer numbers left (1 Sniper) verse our (2 tankers and a KV1 + an unmanned T60). Also, they had one drop from the server and rejoined and fought. I thought when someone drops they must stay dropped. The cat and Mouse game could go on all day, but it was clear who the victor was in this case, and that is a fully manned KV1 verse a sniper clearly would kill him after awhile.

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