Independents

I feel that Independents should be put in their own Army Groups up in the very Northern Front. An example for the Axis would be Army Group Norway and for the Russians the Lenningrad Front. These two Army Groups can fight eachother and not "interefere" with taking slots in other matches that would not let units/ clans from putting their own troops into it.

Of course if you need volunteers to buff your unit up in a Match you could ask the independents for reenforcements, but this would be up to a unit leader/ AG commander.

This would be, in my honest opinion, the fairest way to let these individuals get involved, make an influence on the campaign, as well as let everyone have fun.
Thoughts?

I don't think they need their own Army Group, but they can have their own Division within AG North. Then the AG Commander can use this division as a seperate clan/unit. Example: AG North would have 3 Divisions to fight with and can rotate them in if need be. I don't think there is enough volunteers to make a whole match on their own. For the Allies, I'm treating them right now as a seperate division in AG North and can supplement numbers in other units/AG's.

Individuals should be Russian Partisans =P

I'm not sure I appreciate the tone of this post.

I agree with Metalborne because there is a lot of experience in the individuals and being relegated to just play the other individuals would be a bit like kissing your sister

Treating the independants is just being realism snobs, which this campaign is to abolish! snobbery (what?) is what is killing the realism scene, accept others and they will accept you. The Independants are there to make up the slots if we need any in a battle and even when they elect a leader could effectivly form thier own unit in the campaign.

The tone of this post is not meant to be cruel. I feel it is a fair question to bring up. Yes, independents might be very skilled at playin this game. I just want to know who they will listen to in matches because they have zero organization atm. I am sure with a little help from another unit these guys could have a vent server, and possibly even a place to practice prior to the match. I am interested to not hear complaining of "why we're being treated like sub-qualified players," and more ideas of how you independents feel you can be best used.

Thanks,
werner

Friedrich Werner wrote:

The tone of this post is not meant to be cruel. I feel it is a fair question to bring up. Yes, independents might be very skilled at playin this game. I just want to know who they will listen to in matches because they have zero organization atm. I am sure with a little help from another unit these guys could have a vent server, and possibly even a place to practice prior to the match. I am interested to not hear complaining of "why we're being treated like sub-qualified players," and more ideas of how you independents feel you can be best used.

Thanks,
werner

It was a condescending tone not a cruel tone that I perceived and it could be a fair question if it was worded differently but thats not a big deal. Not having participated in this tournament before I feel my input would be limited at best about what to do with the individuals. Personally I think its a question for the higher ranks to use the resources at their disposal the way they see fit. As for organization I know a few people here who belong to clan/units and I'm not overly impressed with the communication skills they present (albeit not all). As for a vent/TS2 server I have never played in a tournament that one was not setup already. Realizing the scale of this one I imagine communication servers might be a problem but if it is looked at as a little help to get us one rather than feel obliged and if each and every unit/clan will be using there own then maybe we should take measures to secure one on our own.

No one mentioned sub-qualified players here except yourself (is that you train of thought?) and like I said above its not our place to interject the kinds of opinions on how we could best be used. But make no mistake there are people in the individuals who have played in many similar tournys and they do know how to respond on a battle field. I'm sure there will be lobos in every unit not just unattached ones I have seen it before in the past. But if we are here just to stick in the corner and fiddle ourselves then there is not much point in wasting time for YOU or ME. So as for ideas and suggestions like I say its not our place to say.

This is an amazingly large undertaking and I'm sure the logistics are daunting at the least so again I say let the higher ranks sort us out but please don't sell us short.

Dreek, you are attacking Werner for nothing. So stop it. If you think your carefully crafted words are hiding your tone against him, your wrong.

First off, your bit about having the independents fight off in their own little corner:

Isnt that was IC was? A whole group of indies that faught eachother? How would that be different at all?

Second, Units/Clan spend alot of time together and take pride in alot of things they do. Speaking mainly from the Unit I'm in. We dont place the value of winning and "mouse clicking" skills above having fun. To us the challenge of organization and creating an enviroment of Ostfront warfare is all we seek. And Ill be frank, having a bunch of highly skilled Counter strike players running around with satchels and other such none sense is very disheartening to me.

Now, I have never played IC nor with a group of indies attached to my Unit, but I have a pretty good idea what will happen. That being said however, I will accept indies into 1.SS fights if we need them and try out the idea. If I am proven totally wrong, I will continue to let them fight.

So why dont the indies as a group decide what it is you want and let the Admins know so they can create something that is fun for everyone.

I don't think the individuals would go through the process of signing up, monitoring the forums, and showing up on match day if they do not intend to play as a team. Everyone deserves a chance. It will become obvious quickly that 1 life play is not typical RO play.

Klaus is right, those player who are actually willing to play as a team player signed up for this campaign. Hell I'm not sure if any of you have been to a 29th public scrim but I've gone to a couple and they can get those random pubbers listening in their public scrims. Now like said before the ones who took the time to sign for this sure as hell will listen to anyone in command (if not kick em out the campaign.) I know I'm here to listen and have a good time playing with the allies and listen to whomever gives me any orders.

Great point. I didnt think of that aspect.

Like I said however, I think the Indies need to let everyone know what they want to do?

Fight amongst the Unit/clans or fight as there own AG or Div?

One thing I am sure of is that Metalbourne and Werner are very fair and are here to try and make everyone happy. Not just an elite group of Realism Units that think there Gods on earth(Not pointing fingers just voicing how most of the RO community tends to see us as).

I think if their is enough they can form a Division. Not to sure how many of us individuals their are but if we have an alright number we could from a Division.

If there are not enough to form a division, a certain number of slots for individuals could be used for matches where units involved don't have sufficient numbers on their own rather than drawing reinforcements from other units. If every map units have the required numbers, then either a small army group must be formed, or there should be matches where individuals take precedent, and units fill in the rest. I'm a realism unit member, but I say give everyone their chance, there will be enough matches if this campaign is played as it is planned. And another Army group could always be added IMO if we have more people than matches. The decision was made before the campaign began to include individual sign ups, either they be given a fair shake and equal treatment or it should never have been allowed, IMHO. Heck, individuals may even wish to join units after playing alongside them, bolstering the entire realism community.

I know the Russians are using partisans, the Germans could always use Reserve troops, Volksgrenadiers, or Rollbahn troops as portrayals for their independents. I think it would be nice if every so often (determined by the TOC creators) perhaps an attack/defense could be bolstered beyond normal levels by the addition of a partisan unit or a Rollbahn/reserve/volksgrenadier unit in the form of a second wave of attack/defense if the high command for that side deems the objective of sufficient importance to risk more units. (maybe they could even only count for half of the value they usually would or something to encourage their use in this way).

Schweitzer wrote:

Dreek, you are attacking Werner for nothing. So stop it. If you think your carefully crafted words are hiding your tone against him, your wrong.

First off, your bit about having the independents fight off in their own little corner:

Isnt that was IC was? A whole group of indies that faught eachother? How would that be different at all?

Second, Units/Clan spend alot of time together and take pride in alot of things they do. Speaking mainly from the Unit I'm in. We dont place the value of winning and "mouse clicking" skills above having fun. To us the challenge of organization and creating an enviroment of Ostfront warfare is all we seek. And Ill be frank, having a bunch of highly skilled Counter strike players running around with satchels and other such none sense is very disheartening to me.

Now, I have never played IC nor with a group of indies attached to my Unit, but I have a pretty good idea what will happen. That being said however, I will accept indies into 1.SS fights if we need them and try out the idea. If I am proven totally wrong, I will continue to let them fight.

So why dont the indies as a group decide what it is you want and let the Admins know so they can create something that is fun for everyone.

No I wasn't attacking anyone but it seems I said some things you don't like.

I can identify posturing when I seeit though and as an Indie as you say I was just calling it as I see it.

Sorry for opening my mouth this will be the last of my input. You do what you want.

Thats a pretty good coupe out Dreek. I am in zero position of power in this forum and campaign. My opinions are completely my own and should be taken us such. Speak your mind brother.

Well I'd be interested if any independents would like to step up as a leader for their sides... This idea forum is for making suggestions like my original post. If you don't like an idea that's cool, nothing is set in stone. Dreek bud I value your opinion because you took the time to signup for this campaign... let me know what you think (and everyone else) and we'll progress from there. I also appologize if my tone was misunderstood... I was probably typing away my idea before a "not so fun" ROTC PT session.

Another idea I am thinking is a "what if" scenario where Finland does not join the Axis side. if this would be the case, we could make Finland neutral and just let the russian territories of vyborg and karelia be adjoining to Ingria and Archangel. This could add for some exciting attempts by the germans to cut off these two provinces later down the road! This would also allow both northern Army Groups focus their attention on the Prussia- Poland border to begin with and not have people worry about flank attacks from the far north. Thoughts?

I like the Idea of "independents" fighting against eachother up in Norway and Finland. If the Allies push far enough into Finland and Norway, they can possibly attack Denmarck, and if the Axis push far enought, they can attack Leningrad or Moscow. I still think the option should kept open though, for unitls lacking manpower to be able to select individuals to fight with them in battles. But having each side have it's own "independant" unit makes shure everyone gets to fight.

I do think Finland should be included in the Axis, as a territory that can be battled for. And if Finland falls we can think up some neat consequences for the Axis. This is a realism campaign, and IRL Finland was in the Axis.

I have decided to form all Axis Independents in their own Unit, included into Heeresgruppe Nord for the time being.

Portrayal: 250. Infanterie-Division (Spanish Blue Division)
*Tags: Name.Azul

*Ingame these Independents will use these tags behind their name just so they are recognized as part of the campaign. I.e. Werner.Azul

Sign-up for the Unit in Heeresgruppe Nord Forums under the topic i have created there. If you arn't in the Axis usergroup yet and you want to fight only Axis, go up to the tab above that says 'Groups' and request to join the Axis Usergroup.

We'll be discussin on that forum how we want to implement you best within the Army Group

Thanks,
Werner

Funny enough I am trying to start the same thing for Allied Individuals in the Western front (eastern as well if needed.) Allied soldiers read the post I made and post in the topic if your interested.

Friedrich Werner wrote:

I have decided to form all Axis Independents in their own Unit, included into Heeresgruppe Nord for the time being.

Portrayal: 250. Infanterie-Division (Spanish Blue Division)
*Tags: Name.Azul

*Ingame these Independents will use these tags behind their name just so they are recognized as part of the campaign. I.e. Werner.Azul

Sign-up for the Unit in Heeresgruppe Nord Forums under the topic i have created there. If you arn't in the Axis usergroup yet and you want to fight only Axis, go up to the tab above that says 'Groups' and request to join the Axis Usergroup.

We'll be discussin on that forum how we want to implement you best within the Army Group

Thanks,
Werner

A better choice would be the 169th Infanterie Division Werner, as they actually fought in Norway four the duration of the Eastern Front, until the Lapland war. They were the only unit to fight up North for the duration of the Eastern Front.

250th Infanterie Division never forught up North.

I chose the 250th because they were a volunteer unit (Although granted many of the Axis units were made up of volunteers) This unit did fight in Lenningrad area however which is where Heeresgruppe Nord will be fighting in and around. IMO a good fit, but thanks for that idea as well.

If they are fighting up in Norway they would be their own "Armee", AOK Norwegen.

I see why you picked the other one, but this might be a better fit.

They are in HG Nord now. There is no HG Norway, as HG Nord will encompass that entire area as well.

Just so everyone is up to speed, the campaign map has been edited and is looking snazy!

Side Note: Also if you have questions about certain North North North Russia rules take a look at the Historical Accuracy Rules section in the TOC Rules Thread. Finland and Norway are part of Heeresgruupe Nord, but they get a special place in this campaign as being host to non mechanized forces.

There might appear to be a lot of rules in this Campaign, but the best part is that many of you wont have to worry about them... you'll just benefit from them in your matches.