The 29th Issue/Problem

Ok. it seems all our efforts to get them into this campaign have failed, several members being banned from thier forums, topics being locked.

Thier members being threatened with expulsion should they sign up individually.

I think its time to give them the "ultimatum", tell them you join now or you never join.

If they've been this stubborn so far do you really think that will change their minds?

I don't see this as an issue or problem. It was pretty clear they wouldn't sign up in the first place, just let them have fun doing drills. Don't see any need for this topic really.

Leave them alone to do what they will. Trying to threaten them is of no use.

It is the officers choice and we have no place in trying to make them join. If they dont want to join, thats there problem

Christie wrote:

Ok. it seems all our efforts to get them into this campaign have failed, several members being banned from thier forums, topics being locked.

Thier members being threatened with expulsion should they sign up individually.

I think its time to give them the "ultimatum", tell them you join now or you never join.

A bit harsh, considering they never asked to join and it's not our place to force them into participating when they have expressed no desire to do so.

Perhaps they are waiting for the official release of DH before they participate in official scrims? If so, it won't hurt anyone to allow them until that time to join, the official release of DH should come before the western front portion of the campaign begins, in which case they will have time to properly orient themselves with the game before committing themselves to battle.

Let's not provoke hostility from them with hostile treatment, this goes especially for our Allied units who are supposed to be their natural friends, why should they go to battle alongside you when you treat them as the enemy?! Let us instead respect them and allow them the space and time to develop a more agreeable position, so that when we need them most they will be more willing to join.

I would like to say from the start, I came here to comment on my own, I'm not sent by my unit nor do my views necessarily represent our units official views.

I've been watching the debate about TOC-campaign on our forums with mixed feelings. On the other hand, I would see it positive for our unit to interact and co-operate with others in RO community. On the other hand, I see we have very different views and ideas on realism, and we do have bad experiences on all kinds of ladders and campaigns.

What some of TOC members don't seem to crasp, we do things our way, be it good or bad from your point of view. It works for us. Looking at the active member-count, it doesn't seem too bad either. The most important points being cohesion, communication and efficiency. These can only be achieved through training. I have seen some of TOC members smirking and laughing about our interest in drills, but let me assure you, they are paying off. And that is also part of re-enacting; portraying a military unit means drills, structure and discipline.

I also see, and I'm pretty glad about it, that majority of TOC members have a rational mindset to things, and "see our way". I would love personally to play with you guys, and some of you I've already played with. And had lots of fun! I hope we will co-operate and work together somehow in the future.

There are few things I'd like to clarify and correct;
1) Individual joining on TOC campaign has NOT lead to threats from unit leadership! Individual players may join, but not with the 29th ID tag. It is also prohibited by our rules to be a member of another unit on DH community, so it does narrow our possibilities, but I see it as no threat. Definitely not.
2) Banning has only taken place when forum rules are broken.
3) Further threats and ultimatums will NOT work on TOCs favor, so I would suggest, you keep your ranks in order. Some members have already worked against your aim by posting threats and ultimatums, and generally behaving badly. This whole debate has already caused a lot of bad vibes in our unit, I wouldn't like to see it escalate any further.

I would like to quote Mr. Pettinen's post from our forums, you can make your own judgment on how correct that was;

Quote :

Re: Next Realism Campaign
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 08:45:09 AM »


*Bump" The campaign has already started, we in need of Allied units. As far as i can see if you continue not to join the campaign your place in the realism community is void. As all other units are participating in the campaign meaning they have no time for any other matches outside.

You are one of the largest units out there, there is no reason why you shouldnt join.

As a reply, this post caused a lot of bad feelings and thoughts about TOC. I don't want to believe them to be true, so I had to come here to see for my self and maybe open a discussion to alleviate the tensions. As I came here, I saw a lot of people keen and dedicated to work for realism-community. And I am happy to see there are others. Let's not make it difficult to work and interact with each other. It doesn't work on anyone's favor.

Thank you for reading my thoughts, I hope we will continue with positive thoughts from here-on.

Pvt. Ilo, 29th ID

If that has brought about negative feelings towards the campaign, then i am sorry for my actions. If you wish to do things your way, ok ill accept that now.

not really being part of the DH/realism community, i dont want to tread to far into this....but a few observations:

is not the purpose of training to prepare to fight? fighting against OTHER clans/units is the only test to see how well you have developed through training. to sit back and not fight just makes no sense whatsoever.

it is like having your sports team training all year round and never playing one real game against another team...

isolation just gets the rest of the community annoyed.

anyway...i'll try to get more of our SiN guys to show up in the future to help out the allies with that lack of numbers. i would suggest that more effort be put into getting more individuals signed up to play with the Allies instead of trying to convince a unit to play that has already made it a point that they are not going to. there is talk amongst Iron Crescendo guys about getting another IC campaign going (they are talking about playing DH ), but it might be better to try to get them over here instead of them wasting their time trying to revitalize something that is pretty much dead. TOC is the best shot at keeping campaigns alive in RO until game2 comes along.

bswearer wrote:

is not the purpose of training to prepare to fight? fighting against OTHER clans/units is the only test to see how well you have developed through training. to sit back and not fight just makes no sense whatsoever.

it is like having your sports team training all year round and never playing one real game against another team...

I understand your view, but I have to disagree. On the grounds of purpose. 29th is not merely a clan/unit, it is a realism unit. Thus it is not our ultimate goal to be CB champions 3 years in a row or winning a certain campaign. Achieving things is not a matter of being better than the next guy. Achievement can also be judged by many means, not just competing. To use your example on my point, a trained eye can see just how good the sports team is, and the fact does not change if they play a match with someone or not.

bswearer wrote:

isolation just gets the rest of the community annoyed.

Why? I don't understand, why it should be an annoyance? Maybe there is a misconception, that the 29th holds itself somewhat better than others, and looks down on other units? That is certainly not the case. We just want to do things our way, which we think is the best for us. There are many ways to enjoy RO/DH. Why should one choice be more annoying and less acceptable than others?

Maybe we will join some campaign at some point. I don't honestly know. I would like that, but it's not my decision to make.

Don't you know that too much training can be counterproductive?:

"The 29th Division was reactivated on 3 February 1941 and departed for the United Kingdom on 5 October 1942 where it continued training in Scotland and England from October 1942 up to June 1944 in preparation for the invasion of France. The division was the first National Guard division to be posted to England, and would stay so long they would be derisively nicknamed, "England's own""

"It was a victory with an enormous and ghastly cost. The 29th had taken 20,111 dead and wounded in battle, and 8,665 noncombat casualties. That was a casualty rate of over 204 percent for the division. Although no statistics were kept at company level, the skewing of risk toward the front-line infantrymen means the rifle companies must have suffered casualties in the vicinity of 300 percent."

No wonder why you need so many men...

The reason why people (that i've seen and agree with to a point) are annoyed with the 29thID is for a few reasons,

We understand that you guys are a realism unit, as are others in RO/DH/MN, and want to be fully trained and so on, but when asked by fellow allied units (now only 2 or 3 left, even Axis units have asked you guys with no reply) to help play agianst the Axis horde of 6 + units, we are told that you guys are still in training and will be able to deploy in 3 months. Three months go bye and we ask again and recieve no answer. The point to this is, what is the point of training as a realism unit if there is no realism community left to play against? SHD stepped in and became a Alllied realism unit so the community didn't die, we did this not only to play in realism matches, but to keep the realism community going since everyone started a Axis unit. You guys have the numbers and the ability to keep realism within RO/DH/CC/MN going by joining in on these campaigns/skrims. You guys are needed to keep intrest going or it will die out. If you sit by and do nothing to help out fellow Allied units in a time of need, how does that reflect on the real 29thID you guys portray. Would they not assit the 3rdAD in WW2?

All realism units need to stick together because we all want the same thing, to play realism matches to reflect as close as possible WW2 battles. RO is old and units are dieing off or going to new games. Isolating yourselves means you do not wish to participate in the realism community and therefore does not care about it's outcome. That's your right as a unit , you can do whatever you want, but your fellow realism units would rather help the community and try to keep it going then let it die. Without the realsim community, RO as a game would take a huge loss that it can not afford.

One unit/person does make a difference in this case. What if 3rdAD/SHD just dropped RO and went to another game? The 193rd Rifle Division would be all that's left of the allies in realism. I personally have done everything I can for the realism community and all of the realism units have come together under 1 roof (T.O.C.) to keep it going. That was my goal of the T.O.C. when it was created. I beg you as a fellow ALlied unit, talk to your leaders and help us in our time of need. You guys could take Realism in RO/DH/MN/CC to the next level with your manpower and resources.

Once you guys join and help out with your input and so on, I know the T.O.C. would run better and flurish. The realism community needs you, and most of all, RO/DH/MN/CC needs you.

LSchroll wrote:

Don't you know that too much training can be counterproductive?:
...
No wonder why you need so many men...

Taken out of context that was a pretty lame joke...

Metalbourne wrote:

Once you guys join and help out with your input and so on, I know the T.O.C. would run better and flurish. The realism community needs you, and most of all, RO/DH/MN/CC needs you.

I can see your point Metalbourne, but I have to say (as I said in another post), if the community is really dependent on one/two units, something is twisted. Now, I don't know, what kind of correspondence has taken place between you and our leadership, but I have to concur with my COs; we are not ready yet. I find it hard to believe, they have surely promised 3 months, that would be unrealistic in any aspect. Maybe there was some kind of a misunderstanding?

Whichever is the case, I do hope we would join TOC or similar campaign at some point, and do more active co-op in the community. The time for campaigns is not yet, but maybe we could do more co-op, or at least open up connections to other units.

Personally I do appreciate the work you've all done for the community. I hope it turns out good, even if it may look dim now.

The hole thing is that you guy's been saying that for ages now , and it's both sad and funny in the same time "we're not ready yet ... " I mean it's a game you don't kneed 9 months to get ready , except if you have bad training sessions (no offence) I mean really experience is gain via battles not training , because while you guy's sit there training , other units are fighting in matches.
Because you win you lose, it's all irrelevant , the thing that matters is experience , the type of experience you get via battles (same as in real life ,sure training helps allot but it's not all) that's the only way to get better, again I don't mean any offence,just an advice it's up to you how you interpret it.
But thinks about it , and don't be afraid to bring it up with you're superiors .

Quote :

I understand your view, but I have to disagree. On the grounds of purpose. 29th is not merely a clan/unit, it is a realism unit.

And just so you know most of us been in or leading realism units for year's not and know what we are talking about


Regards
SS-Oberscharführer u. Zugführer, Eugen Reinhard

At least join for the Western front, so that way it would be somewhat realistic in that we on the Eastern front would feel great relief at the opening of the second front.

Yeah, I agree with Volodnikov... If you joined during the Western Front of the campaign, it would do a few things for us.. Firstly it would be fairly realistic, like Volodnikov said, it would provide a relief for the eastern front, and it would also be a great boost to the allied side it self, making the playing field a bit more even for everyone.

ToC isnt all about Winning and Losing, its about having fun and fighting/cooperating with other unit's in hopes to portray WWII battles as realistic as possible.

jdoe wrote:

LSchroll wrote:

Don't you know that too much training can be counterproductive?:
...
No wonder why you need so many men...

Taken out of context that was a pretty lame joke...

Kind of like your unit?

HStrauss wrote:

ToC isnt all about Winning and Losing, its about having fun and fighting/cooperating with other unit's in hopes to portray WWII battles as realistic as possible.

Amen.

Eugen Reinhard wrote:

Quote :

I understand your view, but I have to disagree. On the grounds of purpose. 29th is not merely a clan/unit, it is a realism unit.

And just so you know most of us been in or leading realism units for year's not and know what we are talking about

I'm sorry, I put it the wrong way, it was not meant an offense, I was just referring to training concept and why people train. You know as well as I do, regular clans train to win ladders, we in realism train for other purposes.

And we do play axis vs allies on our drills, so I wouldn't say we don't battle with others. And furthermore, if you want realism, this is as HC as it gets; the Americans didn't join ETO until 1943

LSchroll wrote:

jdoe wrote:

Taken out of context that was a pretty lame joke...

Kind of like your unit?

This will be my last reply to this matter, given you LSchroll are clearly just provoking a fight here.

First of all, your "joke" on real-life casualties is stupid and sickening in my view. Secondly, you took out casualty list for the not one battle, but the whole deployment period of the 29th. And thirdly, I can give you hundreds of examples of all axis and allies units in the war who had 300% front-line unit casualties during the war, the German and Russian topping them all with going to even double that. So casualties don't really tell you anything about unit training, more of the intesity of the battles they took part.

Now I don't want to talk about this sick joke anymore, I'm an ex-soldier myself, I don't take joking about casualties lightly.